By Edward McIntyre
Carole Buckner, Procopio partner and general counsel; Dan Eaton, Seltzer Caplan partner; and Tanya Schierling, partner and chair of Solomon Ward’s litigation department, discuss learning to be a lawyer. Ed McIntyre moderated. Substantially edited and condensed for space, their conversation follows.
Ed: Did you have a mentor?
Carole: At every stage. That’s been important, especially because I’ve switched among different areas: prosecutor, educator, litigator. At each stage, mentors helped me learn.
Tanya: I’ve had senior mentors, junior mentors. All kinds. Still have them. They’re critical to the ethical and competent practice of law.
Dan: Often, mentoring’s project-specific. Thought of episodically — not a sustained guide over a career — you have mentors at critical stages. The value comes from the silent nudges you get, even when they’re unavailable, as you confront questions, and ask yourself, what would your mentor do? One great experience was working with Jerry McMahon on one of his last trials. Mentorship through example is one great thing a lawyer can experience. Watching that man conducting cross-examination was a mentoring masterclass.
Ed: Tanya, what are your thoughts about young lawyers today?
Tanya: One thing we can tell them: we don’t expect you to know everything. In fact, if you think you know everything, that’s your first problem. We’re here to guide you, help you. You may feel we expect you to operate on a hundred cylinders all the time. But it’s OK if you don’t know the answer. As lawyers we identify issues. Identify what you know, what you don’t. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. We owe it to the next generation of lawyers to tell them that.
Ed: What do you wish you could have done earlier, looking back over a 24-, 30-, 35-year career?
Tanya: I started practice as a JAG attorney and can’t imagine a better way to start. You get hands-on experience immediately. Not just in the practice of law, but in briefing senior commanders. It’s a structure of respect and order; there’s comradery and mentorship, time to mentor young lawyers. I can’t say there’s something I would have done differently; that was the best experience of my life.
Carole: I was a litigator for years. Still am in many respects. I wish I had tried more cases earlier. I worked with an experienced trial lawyer out of law school — that was great. I became a prosecutor later. In some ways, I wish I’d become a prosecutor earlier, had been in court and gotten that experience earlier, rather than mid-career.
Ed: What mistakes were important to you in your development?
Tanya: I think one thing you continue to learn is what you can control, and what you can’t. To make allowances for the things you can’t. For things you can control, make sure they’re buttoned down tight. I’m thinking about my first major trial. I thought it was just like a mechanical go-through, put the evidence on. Not realizing it’s about putting on a play. Persuasive effort. I had to think less myopically, more broadly.
Carole: When I was in litigation, my initial attempts at discovery were pretty basic. After years of doing it, I learned to focus on what counted at trial, what made a difference. Also, listen to the opposition, to clients, to judges.
Dan: Younger attorneys tend to focus project-specific; don’t see the proverbial forest through the trees. You try to learn all you can about a specific question; but when you find that answer, you can lose context. If you lose context, you lose the ability to put what you’re doing into the broader narrative. Maybe the answer you found isn’t the right one — in the broader context. The puzzle piece doesn’t fit exactly. The need to step back and look more broadly is one of the great lessons of experience.
Tanya: No one could expect a brand-new lawyer to understand the whole context, but they should understand they don’t understand it.
Dan: A bad outcome doesn’t equal a mistake. You learn from a bad outcome; you focus on what you might have done better, what to do differently. You’ll make mistakes. Wisdom comes from not making the same mistake twice. Education comes in recognizing a mistake from a non-mistake. That’s the value seasoned lawyers bring to clients and, importantly, to those they mentor.
Ed: What was important in learning to be the lawyer you are?
Carole: In my career I’ve tried a lot of new things. I started off doing business litigation. I did legal education.
Ed: You were a law school dean.
Carole: Yes. I became a federal prosecutor. I was never afraid when somebody presented an opportunity that looked interesting. Go ahead, take a leap, try it. My job now as general counsel benefits from having that diverse background. Teaching evidence, ethics, civil procedure — all the classes I taught — understanding criminal law and federal investigations, all becomes valuable.
Tanya: One thing I did in law school and continue to do is read fiction. It’s important to the lawyer I am today. From maintaining balance in my life, to maintaining a sense of humanity, to understanding good writing, seeing bad writing, being able to tell a story.
Dan: Following Carole and Tanya, just as preparing a case is a narrative process, so is developing a career. One thing: Be alert to what lessons you’re learning. Be conscientious about building on the things you’ve experienced so you continue to grow. Recognize when you feel your muscles getting taxed — because of a new experience, because it’s a different kind of case, because of difficult personalities — all this ultimately makes you a better lawyer. The critical point: Don’t be afraid of launching in and accepting the challenge.
Ed: Tanya, you were JAG …
Tanya: Then I was with one firm, went to another, left, went to the firm where I am now. New to the San Diego legal community, new to the practice of civil law, I didn’t know the business side — choosing a firm, what to look for. At each stage I learned and found something different and better. I feel like Goldilocks; the third firm — it’s a perfect fit.
Ed: What learning experiences will prepare lawyers in practice three to five years, and five to eight years for practice in 20 years?
Tanya: We are stewards of our clients. Approach every client as its steward; strive to understand their problem and solve it. Of course, you can only solve legal problems, but at least in my practice I feel I do a lot more around the edges. Patience, listening, compassion, but also be analytical. I told an associate just yesterday our job is to tell our clients bad news. Yes, we’re their advocate to the world, but when we sit at a table with them, we tell them the worse case. A big part of our job is managing expectations. But be compassionate about it. Today, it’s become so individualized you can live in your own tunnel. It’s difficult to have that sense of stewardship for someone else.
Carole: Progressively take on more responsibility to improve your capacity as a lawyer. You need to continue to grow to meet the needs of the clients; do that by having a diversity of experiences, with different people mentoring you.
Dan: It gets to the point that Carole and Tanya have been making. The best way forward is to surround yourself with a variety of people whose experiences have been different from yours and whose practices have been different. It gets back to Tanya’s point: we are and have been since the beginning of our noble profession stewards of our client. When you ask me to look around the corner, I couldn’t possibly tell you what the specifics will be. I can tell you with some confidence that the core is going to be exactly what Tanya and Carole have already expressed.
Ed: What one or two things from law school were important in your development?
Dan: This gets to the point Tanya, you raised before, about the importance of narrative and about the focus on consequences of acts as a means of persuasion. The other is the idea of being able to distill your whole case into one sentence, maybe two. Those seeds were planted in law school, and I was fortunate to be in places where those seeds were nurtured again and again.
Carole: Two people. One was Justice Carol Corrigan, whom I had for trial advocacy, when she was a prosecutor — an incredible teacher. The other was Professor Downs, whom I had for civil procedure. He was not an academic, but a practical, successful, real trial lawyer. He made it sound like the most fun thing you could ever do. That was so attractive. Those two professors made an indelible impression on me.
Tanya: I came to realize that there is a limitless ocean of knowledge. You will never know everything there is to know about any legal issue. No matter how expert you are. That’s a little daunting, but it’s also inspiring. I love that about the practice of law; the seed of it began in law school. Another thing I learned came from a domestic violence clinic in third year. For many of these people, the legal system isn’t the solution to their problems. We were young law students wanting to help. One of my colleagues said, remind yourself: these are not my facts. The facts are what they are. I can’t control them. I can try to build a story and progress from there, but I have to distance myself to some extent from the facts. That was particularly useful when I was a prosecutor, because the human condition can be depressing sometimes. Even in civil litigation, it’s an awesome responsibility when clients call and put their trust in your hands. You have to be their stewards, but also know, those are their facts, and I can’t change those facts.
Dan: At the end of the day, young lawyers should say, “yes.” If you do, remarkable opportunities will open up and will build on those you’ve already had. If you get into the habit of saying yes, seizing opportunities, you will build upon them one at a time. When you look back, decades later, you’re going to be pretty satisfied.
Ed: Thank you all. Wonderful.
Edward McIntyre is a professional responsibility lawyer and co-editor of San Diego Lawyer.