A panel discussion by James D. Crosby
About the panelists:
Kristen Fritz is an attorney with Smaha Law Group. She has been in practice for over 18 years.
Tristan Younghaus is owner and attorney with Coastal Pacific Law. She has been in practice for six years.
Alreen Haeggquist is the founder and managing partner at Haeggquist & Eck LLP. She has been in practice for 17 years.
Michelle Gastil is a solo practitioner with a focus on civil litigation and bankruptcy. She has been in practice for 10 years.
We live in turbulent, disruptive times. Technology is rapidly changing how we live and work. The boundary line between work and home is becoming less and less clear. Demographics are changing, diversity is on the rise, power is shifting, business is changing, and the pace of business and life is accelerating. And the practice of law is not immune to these sweeping changes and emerging trends. San Diego Lawyer brought together four prominent San Diego attorneys to discuss emerging trends in the practice of law and how those trends relate to their current practices. The gender makeup of the panel members (all women) and the generational gap between the panel members (two attorneys under 10 years of practice, and two attorneys, each with almost 20 years’ experience), as well as their differing practices and experiences, led to a lively and interesting discussion, which at times strayed outside its initial premise.
James Crosby, a San Diego civil litigator and trial attorney, moderated this free-flowing conversation covering a broad mix of topics.
Following are highlighted excerpts form the conversation.
Changes in Communications
Alreen Haeggquist: The fact that clients can text you, Facebook message you, email you, call you. That is different even from when I started practicing. If I don’t turn that off, that keeps me up at night. I practice just trying to turn myself off and not being constantly engaging so I can give my mind a rest and be fresh for the next day. But I also pride myself on being responsive because it’s high emotion. Everybody that’s contacted us has either lost their job or lost a lot of money from the business. So, I feel like the name, counselor, really comes into play with what we do. They’re looking for somebody to counsel them through the situation that they’re in. I think it’s important to be there for them.
Kristen Fritz: Communication with the clients, I would agree, is an issue. The expectation of clients — and that comes up a lot in the time that they want from you and how quickly they want something. So, it’s a lot more immediate. And because of the advances in technology, everybody else that’s working for them is giving things immediately. Well, why can’t the lawyer give them immediately, too? But, I’m a chronic insomniac! I’m the person that will respond to a client at 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning. However, between 4 and 8 a.m. that’s my — you message me then, you’re going to have an issue. I just decided it’s often easier for me to deal with something in the moment.
Michelle Gastil: Oh, gosh, I didn’t think I would ever be a solo practitioner who would sometimes never meet a client in person!
Tristan Younghaus: I’ve never known anything else but high amounts of client communication. And I like to be very responsive. But it’s the same; you want to turn it off a little while so you can get some sleep. I do find it’s important to set boundaries because my firm tends to be high emotions because somebody’s passed away, something’s going on in the family. So, I say, if you’re going to text me, I can’t guarantee that I’m going to get it. You can try doing it that way but calling and email is always best. I try to manage it that way.
Technology/Mobility
Kristen Fritz: Technology makes our jobs much easier. Our firm just recently went from a hard server, to a cloud server which is great because there are additional protections for our data, and also the ease of accessibility from absolutely anywhere.
Alreen Haeggquist: Technology does allow you to work and communicate anywhere and do things you don’t have to be physically in the office for, which is nice.
Tristan Younghaus: Innovations and tech are great. I can’t imagine running my firm without some of the management software I have, makes it virtual, handles all the cases together, and puts everything on the cloud, making my life easier. So, I love tech. And, I think that all attorneys will eventually embrace it. Makes my life easier.
Cyber security/Client Data
Alreen Haeggquist: Cyber security — that’s actually a very big concern at our office because people work remotely and because of the dangers presented by hacking. So, how do we handle that? I try to put as many security measures in place at the office as possible to protect clients’ information. I think I have a duty to do that. So, we spend money in making sure that’s taken care of, plus provide training.
Tristan Younghaus: My firm is pretty small. But I do have the same security concerns as any firm. I know people who have actually gotten their firmware ransomed. They encrypted the information and demanded Bitcoins in exchange to unencrypt their information. So, I am very aware of that. I have a cloud server and I regularly back it up. Securing client information is the most important. And you always have to be on the leading edge of that because they’re always making new advances. Just because you’re a small attorney, you can’t get away from it.
Competition/Marketing
Kristen Fritz: Unfortunately, it’s a very saturated legal market. There are so many attorneys. But I do like that there are opportunities for smaller firms or solo practitioners to do the type of work that traditionally would only go to a big firm. I’ve done a lot of work for small firms that I would have expected to have gone to a bigger firm for in the past. But now some clients understand they actually might get better attention, better legal work, lesser fees, for, you know, the same or higher quality of work and attention to the case. I do think that’s something that has changed, and technology is part of that.
Tristan Younghaus: I think that in addition to being the master of the law and keeping up with the legal trends, you really do have to have a degree in marketing because it’s anyone’s game now. It’s so important to know how to utilize the web. And, you should have every avenue open to make your practice succeed. So, I try to read as much marketing material as I can in addition to keeping up on the law because that’s just so important to my practice. And that is something I didn’t learn at all in law school. My undergrad was in economics. And, then, I didn’t have any marketing classes in law school. So, I’m kind of a beginner there. But, you know, five years of learning on the job is something that’s been invaluable in my practice.
Alreen Haeggquist: Our work still comes — the best work still comes from people, you know, other attorneys, friends, private clients. We have a presence on the web. And have had a lot of engagement in the paper. Frankly, we don’t spend a lot of time, I guess, in marketing at our firm. I think we do now — because we’ve been in business for a while and have been established, that the name’s out there now. And I believe that there’s plenty of work for people. There’s a right attorney-client fit for everyone.
Diversity/Rise of Women in Law
Alreen Haeggquist: I left a big firm to create my own culture. I think that is the trend. We have the power to create our own culture and create exactly the workplace we want. And we don’t have to keep being at a firm and being in that old boys’ network and demanding it from them. We can say, “Oh, we can do it ourselves,” or we can do it better or we can do it differently or we can create the environment we want. So, I think in that sense it’s kind of changing and evolving in that we’re recognizing we have the power to say we can do it without you.
Kristen Fritz: Very early in my career, I was in the old boys’ network. And I learned a lot from that. And for me, I think it actually advanced my career. It wasn’t a detriment to it. However, I also got to the point where I said, you know, I don’t really need this anymore. I started changing and making my own path. But one of the things that I think is really unique about the San Diego legal community is the support systems that are here that enable minorities and women to go out on their own. I think San Diego is a lot more advanced in terms of supporting women and minorities and their ability to practice the way, and with whom,
they would want.
Michelle Gastil: When I first started practicing, it was the end of 2009, I got involved with a group called Girls Think Tank. And I met Alreen! Other founding members of this organization were also female attorneys. I look up to all of them and definitely think that I’m lucky to have started my career in this community. I don’t know it’s probably different in other communities. So, I definitely feel fortunate to have such a strong community here with just a lot of women business owners.
Generational Change/Rise of Milllennials
Alreen Haeggquist: I get excited about young lawyers. I was a young lawyer once. And I remember when I graduated law school, I was super idealistic. I was super excited about the law. You could have given me anything, and I was like so excited to work on it. So, I love young lawyers for that reason. I see that glimmer in their eyes. They’re super excited to get out there. They’re super excited to help clients. They want to do whatever they can to learn and grow. Yes, I’m excited about their energy and moving forward.
Kristen Fritz: I feel like part of the work that needs to be done to bridge the gap between us is to educate us, as the older generation, as to how to understand and work with millennials. They grew up in a very different time and space. And their experiences and the way that they work and socialize is different — it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s better or worse than ours; but it is different. So, I do think that’s where some of the bad reputation or comments come from about millennials and certain things about the way that they work. But I think that it is what it is. So, rather than knocking it, figure out a way that we can also change and work together to learn the best ways.
Non-Lawyers Doing Legal Work and AI
Tristan Younghaus: I think a lot of estate planning will go by the wayside. I mean people will always want that personal touch, or client-attorney touch. And, I don’t think that will go away. But I do think that companies like LegalZoom and such are going to take a lot of the smaller estates away. So, you know, you really have to focus and find opportunities through the technologies. I think you just have to look at it differently or find a new perspective or opening that is created. I’m looking forward to technology. I want everything automated. So, I think it’s a blessing as much as it is changing the landscape of my practice.
Kristen Fritz: I was part of a nonprofit that we started here in San Diego that does public interest advocacy and, you know, looking at having non-lawyers provide services in ways that lawyers can’t, principally for financial reasons. I think though, as with anything else, you can be trained to do certain things. And you will have people that will do them well and that will do them ethically, regardless of whether they’ve gone to law school. And I believe if you are opening up an entire population of people who otherwise cannot afford or will not get legal services and they will get regulated — to be clear, emphasis, underlined, regulated — controlled services from a nonlawyer, I am all in favor of it.
Alreen Haeggquist: Artificial intelligence? There’s been discussion about it. I forgot what I was watching. They were talking about it in the sense of artificial intelligence doing the research and the research would be done for you. And that would be very different. Yes! But I feel like there is. I don’t know how you can replace human interaction. I still think that is important. And I don’t think that’s going anywhere. I think for that reason we will still be around. I don’t think we will be obsolete!
Kristen Fritz: A lot of it could be done by AI. I think it’s research. I think it’s drafting, too. A lot of things that are formulaic, even arguments and briefing. In terms of our practices and being able to do it, I think that it will never replace us as attorneys, and the judgment calls that we’re making, and the advice that we’re giving, and the interactions we have with clients.
Practicing Law
Michelle Gastil: I still love being a lawyer. I did graduate during the recession: 2008-2009 were fun years to graduate! I was fortunate enough to get a job after I passed the Bar and got another job after that, and then fortunate enough to be in a place where I started my own solo practice. Some cases bog you down. Some cases keep you up too much at night. Other cases, this is why I’m a lawyer. If I wasn’t here, this person would be bulldozed through this case. And I’m here to help this person.
Alreen Haeggquist: I love it. I love helping people, being the voice and standing up and saying, “What you did to me wasn’t fair.” I believe all of us sitting here have come from very different backgrounds and very different places, but we’re all trying to accomplish the same thing, you know, providing for our family, putting food on the table. The work that I do representing employees, I think everybody should have a fair shake in the workplace, right? Women should be treated equally. They should be paid fairly when they’re doing the work to support their family. So, to me, I still love it. I still love practicing law. It still gets me excited.
Tristan Younghaus: I love being an attorney. I love the community. I think we all want to help people; and we’re doing that in our own way, no matter what area we’re practicing in. You know, I can’t think of anything else I would rather be doing. I really enjoy my clients and living here in this community. So, it’s a great experience.
Going Forward
Kristen Fritz: I think discussion is key. I think having conversations like this, talking about what is coming and then getting ideas of what we can do. I mean the trends are going to be either what we watch come by us or what we create. So, I would love to be involved in that rather than having it happen to me.
James D. Crosby is a an attorney at law.
This article was originally published in the May/June 2019 issue of San Diego Lawyer.